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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:39 am Post subject: I'm sure this is old news but..

Debian has been told to stop using the Firefox name by Mozilla:

http://blog.globalmsg.com/?p=22

Leg Humper Joined: 01 Jun 2004 Posts: 4702 Location: Utah

Wow Mozilla is being really going against everything they stand for...

I mean, they put the entire application under the GPL, but won't let you use their logo ? WTF ?

Guide Dog Joined: 08 Nov 2003 Posts: 8419 Location: MN

Doomhammer wrote:
Wow Mozilla is being really going against everything they stand for...

I mean, they put the entire application under the GPL, but won't let you use their logo ? WTF ?

This is why debain didn't have firefox for a long time after it was released... because they were being bastereds about the logo, but then they submitted and said, ok you can use the logo in the binary distribution (never heard if they got them to let them include it in the source packages...) now sounds like they are changing their minds... They just need to release a GPL version of their logo (different enough to aviod legal issues...) so we can end this madness.

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:00 am Post subject:

Doomhammer wrote:
Wow Mozilla is being really going against everything they stand for...

I mean, they put the entire application under the GPL, but won't let you use their logo ? WTF ?

You need to read up on the GPL. A logo isn't GPL'd. And I think that Debian are being butt heads about it. Mozilla are legally in the right. Of course, the nonsense being spouted off in the blogs is inaccurate at best, downright ignorant about the GPL at worst.

The issue is redistribution of modified code. Mozilla rightly protects their logo. Red Hat does the same, by the way. As I would if I had a protectable logo.

Guide Dog Joined: 08 Nov 2003 Posts: 8419 Location: MN

was reading suggestions for the names that they could use... My submission following in a long line of recursive acronyms....

GNU is Not Unix
LAME Ain't an MP3 Encoder
KCUF Couldn't Use FireFox

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:28 am Post subject:

Doomhammer wrote:
Wow Mozilla is being really going against everything they stand for...

I mean, they put the entire application under the GPL, but won't let you use their logo ? WTF ?

I don't think it was that they used their logo, it's that they didn't use their logo, but chose to use the "Firefox" name. The Firefox brand includes both the name and the logo, so Debian was in violation of that.

I think this could come back to haunt them. I guarantee that other distros will start to look for other solutions, and they will find one.

The open source community is interesting. If they catch any wind of "corporate" involvement they hit the trail. I know that Mozilla is only trying to protect its image, but it will appear to the true open source community that there is more going on.

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:38 pm Post subject:

Doomhammer wrote:
Wow Mozilla is being really going against everything they stand for...

I mean, they put the entire application under the GPL, but won't let you use their logo ? WTF ?

The protection of logos and branding is actually incredibly important for open source software. If Mozilla Corp didn't zealously protect it's trademarks, less honest companies would be able to hi-jack its logos, destroy its product's brand recognition and obliterate open source as a viable mainstream alternative.

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject:

If I read correctly, it had to do with the modified code. Mozilla wants to be able to approve any code changes prior to distribution, and Debian doesnt want to do this.

So if Mozilla just let Debian do as they please, users would notice issues with "firefox" and put the blame on Mozilla instead of Debian as it most likely relates to the modified code. Additionally, in terms of updates and patches, they wouldnt get deployed as quickly as mozilla would like since Debian would have to implement the same fixes.

My vote goes towards Mozilla...gotta protect your name, logo, and integrity.

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:19 pm Post subject:

CheeseMonger The Great wrote:
Doomhammer wrote:
Wow Mozilla is being really going against everything they stand for...

I mean, they put the entire application under the GPL, but won't let you use their logo ? WTF ?

The protection of logos and branding is actually incredibly important for open source software. If Mozilla Corp didn't zealously protect it's trademarks, less honest companies would be able to hi-jack its logos, destroy its product's brand recognition and obliterate open source as a viable mainstream alternative.

It's a bit of a double edged blade. A part of me is pissed off at Debian for being snobish hippies (if you really understand Richard Stallman's personality, I really hate people like him), but lets not forget the "KIllustrator" incident.

A German law firm sued the author of KIllustrator "on behalf" (read: without them knowing) of Adobe. This spat was over branding.

On one hand we have the open source zealots who sort of go over the edge, then on the other hand there are suits that also go over the edge to protect branding.

Personally I think they can all go stuff themselves. There's more important things going on in the world: Cander, AIDS, world hunger, nuclear war, etc.

Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:11 pm Post subject:

Lycander wrote:
There's more important things going on in the world: LyCander, AIDS, world hunger, nuclear war, etc.

Fixed.

You're completely right, of course. Unfortunately there's always going to be money-grabbing bastards out there who are trying to harsh your buzz.

I am on Mozilla's side though, it there's one thing the open source community needs, it's a united front. Play nice, Debian.

Guide Dog Joined: 08 Nov 2003 Posts: 8419 Location: MN

well... there is obviously the simple solution of mozzilla releasing a debain package for firefox... lots of other software apps have done that.

Leg Humper Joined: 01 Jun 2004 Posts: 4702 Location: Utah

Yeah I see what you guys are saying.

I was trying to say that this is kind of childish... First of all, why doesn't Debian just use the damned logo? Is that really too much to ask ?

Second of all, why is Mozilla bullying Debian ? Not like they're trying to infringe on their copyright or anything, they just felt like using a custom logo.

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject:

It's not "childish." It's 2 ideals clashing. Debian has a strict culture of what's "free" and what's not. Mozilla is still a coporate entity with a brand to protect.

Something similar happened with XFree86. Granted a lot of distros jumped ship to XOrg simply because XOrg development and release cycles were faster/better. The other part was the license. There was language in the XFree86 license that deals with branding and usage of "XFree86" etc. If you feel like it, read up on this particular incident. Then you'll see that it's not just corporations who have a rod up their bums.

Guide Dog Joined: 08 Nov 2003 Posts: 8419 Location: MN

Doomhammer wrote:
Yeah I see what you guys are saying.

I was trying to say that this is kind of childish... First of all, why doesn't Debian just use the damned logo? Is that really too much to ask ?

Second of all, why is Mozilla bullying Debian ? Not like they're trying to infringe on their copyright or anything, they just felt like using a custom logo.

Jay was telling me in the chat that they can't use either because they changed the code (Though I can't find out how in the change logs other then they made it compile on all of the architetures they support, and packaged it in a deb (And fixed bugs in the deb packaging, and changed a few compatability issues with settings from other apps, and defaults for firefox...)

either way, if mozzilla doesn't like how debain is handling their software, they should release it on their own in a deb package, and then debian cam simply put it in the non-free catagory... problem solved. but mozzilla won't do that because then they need to release it for all of the linux distros, better to just make every one compile it on their own.

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:07 pm Post subject:

Doomhammer wrote:
Yeah I see what you guys are saying.

I was trying to say that this is kind of childish... First of all, why doesn't Debian just use the damned logo? Is that really too much to ask ?

Second of all, why is Mozilla bullying Debian ? Not like they're trying to infringe on their copyright or anything, they just felt like using a custom logo.

Mozilla can't be expected to support unapproved patches to their software! That would be like expecting a car manufacturer to honour warranties on aftermarket extras...

Either the branding should be changed to reflect this, or Debian should run their patches by Mozilla first.